FourteenerWorld Interview with Jack Dais            December 2006

In order to climb such a long and obscure list of peaks like the Thirteeners or Twelvers, one must have a partner that is identical in both the goal and the drive. For me, Jack Dais has been my companion of choice for many such trips to the Colorado mountains. So many adventures have been shared by us, their number not kept by my mind. What has been stored and treasured in my memories of these great trips are the experiences we have created and shared over our 20 -plus year relationship.  All of our journeys have taken us to beautiful and remote destinations, with epic experiences. Once, in a failed attempt to climb Greylock Mountain from a camp at hazel lake, we were forced to rethink our plan for the day when cliffs barred progress. Not wanting to waste a moment of our precious vacation, we raced over to climb Organ and Amherst Mountains, situated far from Hazel Lake. Successful in reaching both summits and dodging thunderstorms, we slogged our way back through the Durango Watershed, up and over Thimble Pass and across the high plateau of tundra to our camp. On our way down the Pass, a porcupine ambled very slowly, refusing to be hurried out of the way by us on a shelf portion of the trail. We must have spent an hour trying to get around that critter. Another time, we awoke to snow and rain falling in our Stormy Gulch campsite. Realizing that we'd rather be wet and slogging through it than lying in a cramped tent, we struggled up Storm King Mountain and Peak Seven over wet rock and 6 inches of fresh snow. These remembrances go on and on. I'd like to present to you readers now that "perfect partner" for the remote and obscure. This interview is long overdue, Jack! Thanks for all the great years of slogging along together! - Jennifer Roach

Jennifer Roach, Gerry Roach, Dan Bereck, Peter Stabolepszy, Ken Nolan, Jean Aschenbrenner, Walt Borneman, & Steve Hoffmeyer composed the following interview questions for Jack:

Q: When did you climb your first mountain? Which mountain was it? How old were you?

A: In 1980, Hille, I(age 40), Sonja(age 7) and Jack Jr.(age 6) moved to Colorado when Bell Labs transferred me here. I soon heard that Colorado had 14,000’ mountains and that they were fun to climb, so we drove up to Quartzville and Sonja and I climbed Mt. Lincoln. We really enjoyed that – I was hooked!! That was my most delightful moment ever on a summit. It became clear that climbing would join skiing and hunting as prime outdoor activities. Hille, Sonja and I climbed Longs Peak the next Summer and during the early 1980’s our whole family climbed quite a few mountains around the Front Range. Many family photos from those days are now prominently displayed around our home.

Q: What was the first technically difficult/dangerous mountain route that you encountered and how did you react?

A: By 1986, we found that things like Mt. Lindsay and Blanca and several other peaks were too difficult and dangerous for us and so we’d have doubts and back off. Those seemed real difficult back then. That’s when Hille and I decided we needed to get our act together and learn a few things. We asked around and heard that the Colorado Mountain Club had a mountaineering school.

Q; Throughout the years you have been a trip leader and BMS instructor for the Colorado Mountain Club. Please tell us a little about your history with the CMC.

A: Hille and I joined CMC in 1987 to take BMS. We learned all those things like map and compass, ten essentials, clothing, route finding, snow skills, rock skills, etc. And, we learned a lot about how to use these skills in the mountains. In 1988, I took IRCS and got the skill to lead rock at the 5.6 level. Theoretically that enabled me to lead any ranked 14er, 13er or 12er in Colorado except for Lizard Head, Turret Ridge, Twin peaks and Pt. 12,438’ on the Pikes Peak quad. I took HAMS in about 1989.

 Rich McAdams was the BMS director in 1988 and HAMS director a year or two later. I assisted Rich in BMS instruction for a year and did a bunch of peaks with him. He had a lot of mountaineering experience and knowledge that I valued. I didn’t refer to Rich as my mentor but he was. I was a Senior Instructor in BMS for about 6 years and led a lot of CMC trips. Between BMS and the leading, I met a lot of people that I still climb with. Presumably some of my BMS students learned a few things from me too – mentoring went on but we didn’t call it that back then.

Q: At what point in your career did you climb Lizard Head? Who did you do it with? Did you lead? What finish did you do?

A: Lizard Head is a 5.8 level peak and because it’s a 13er, one needs to climb it to complete the list. Prior to 1997, I didn’t think it was realistic for me to do a 5.8 level peak because of my modest technical abilities so was not intent on doing the 13ers. But in 1997 I did a hut-to-hut ski trip led by Gudy Gaskill and learned that she and her son Craig partnered to climb Lizard Head a few years earlier. Also, I knew that Bob Martin chose partners with strong rock skills for Lizard Head and other hard peaks. Because Bob and Gudy accomplished a lot as seniors they became role models for me and I thought I’d give Lizard Head a try.

Lisa Sieders shared an edited copy of Charley Winger’s route description for Lizard Head. I then played the routes on N. Table Mountain till I could follow 5.8. In September 1997 Sean Owens ably led me to within a pitch of the top. Lightning and corn snow then came in real suddenly so we backed off. That was my most terrifying moment on (near) a summit.

On Labor Day 1998, Gerry Roach and I partnered with Jim Rickard for Lizard Head. Jim made leading that look real easy. Lizard Head was my final 13er. Jim carried a bottle of champagne up there as a celebration. I often enjoy Gerry’s photo of Jim and I on the summit. That’s my favorite summit photo. We enjoyed the champagne at dinner that evening.

Q: When and how did you approach the 12ers?

A: By the time I finished the 13ers, Bob Martin, Mike Garratt and Ken Nolan had compiled the 12ers list. Bob and Mike had already climbed them and Ken had less than 200 left. I had learned from Bob and Ken that Turret Ridge and Twin Peaks were the technically hardest 12ers, even harder than Lizard Head. So, in 1999 I struck while the iron was hot to get those done with Jim Rickard who was at the top of his leading game and before I became too old and frail. Terry Root and Tom Maceyka provided route input for respectively Turret Ridge and Twin Peaks. Jim and I climbed Turret Ridge, the next day climbed nearby Chimney Rock and the next day got up to one of the Twin Peaks twins in rainy, whiteout conditions. Slippery lichen covered rock precluded us from crossing the crack over to the other twin. So we speculated that our twin was higher and declared that to be the summit. But later on, Bob Martin, who had hand-leveled the twins, advised me that the other twin is a few inches higher. John Petrarca and I then followed Regis Colasanti to the higher twin in 2000. And, I then thought that the technically hard 12ers were done.

But, in 2001 Gerry and Jennifer Roach climbed Pt 12,438’ on the Pikes Peak quad and hand-leveled from Pt. 12,438’ to a nearby boulder and determined that boulder was higher. And, they saw that it was a technically challenging climb to get to the top of that summit boulder. A few months later Gerry and Jennifer invited me to join them and Chris Haaland (Chris led it) to climb the peak. We agreed that the boulder is about 5.9 in difficulty and may not have been previously climbed. It may have gone unnoticed by previous climbers because the quad map seems to be missing one or two closed contour lines there.

Q: Do you enjoy climbing with partners or solo adventures?

A: Climbing with 1 or 2 partners is ideal, particularly on hard peaks. Climbing alone is rewarding but I don’t learn very much by being lectured to by myself day after day. Of the 1312 peaks above 12,000’, I’ve probably climbed only about 200 peaks alone. A few years ago, I did a memorable six-peak day alone on the Mt. Richthofen quad doing Nimbus, Cumulus, Howard, Cirrus, Pt. 12,098’ and Mount Cindy. That’s one of many fine days out there alone.

I’ve found many fine partners to climb with. Hille and I finished the 14ers in 1990. We climbed most of those together. She and I did a few hundred 13ers and 12ers together too. I finished the Centennials in 1991 – Bob Kalisch and I climbed the harder ones like Ice Mountain, Jagged, Dallas and Thunder Pyramid and also the harder Bicentennials (like Pilot Knob) together. I finished the Bicentennials a few years later.

While doing 13ers, several friends were doing them too and I could often get together with someone. Jennifer Roach and I climbed more than a hundred together. For several years, we’d do a 9 day San Juan trip around Labor Day to climb 13ers. We did 26 peaks on one of those trips. I’ve climbed a bunch of 13ers with Dave Goldwater, Chris Ruppert, Debbie Reed and Rich Riefenburg too.

When I started doing the 12er list in 1999, Ken Nolan invited me on some trips. I did interesting peaks with him and also got input on many other 12ers he’d done. Aside from Ken nobody else was doing the 12er list, so it started out as a somewhat lonely project.

Fortunately, many friends who were not doing the 12er list were interested in some 12er trips. So in May of each year I’d send a list with about 50 or so trips that I wanted to do that year to Jim and Katherine Rickard, Carol Sasa, Vicki Copeland, Bob Mohr, Jennifer and Gerry Roach, Earl Voight, Dave Anschicks, Rich Riefenburg, Debbie Reed, Dan Bereck and others. That worked real well. I found partners for a lot of trips that way. Jennifer and Dan joined me for my final 12er, Pt. 12,500’ on the Emerald Lake quad in September, 2005.

The Cielo Vista (formerly Taylor) Ranch is home to Culebra, eleven 13ers, seven 12ers and some 11ers. Aside from some limited access to Culebra and Red, the ranch was off limits to climbing for several years prior to 2005 while owned by Lou Pai. Teresa Gergen and Kirk Mallory arranged with new owners Dottie and Bobby Hill for a fee-based trip there in 2005 and invited me so that I could do those 12ers on the ranch that I’d not previously climbed. The ranch is one of my favorite places – a few times we’d be so close to elk that I’d wonder if they might want to stroll over and shake hands.

Q: If you could spend a day hiking/talking with any mountaineer past or present, who would you choose?

A: Bob Martin or Mike Garratt. I’ve corresponded with Bob and Mike but haven’t hiked with them.

Q:Tell us about your canine companions during your climbs of the

14ers, 13ers, 12ers, and 11ers.

A: My German Shorthair Pointers (Brandy 1, Brandy 2, Dusty and now Casey) have climbed a lot of peaks with me. Climbing keeps them in good shape for hunting and vice-versa. Key success factors with dogs are good voice control and carry lots of water so that the dog is always hydrated.

Q: Carl Blaurock said, "I was born a hundred years too soon. We just had hemp rope, and we didn't even use that right." Do you ever wish your mountaineering career had occurred in a different time period?

A: No. My timing was perfect. The 14er, 13er and 12er lists were compiled. People had already done the lists so they were verifiably doable. Some guidebooks were available. Leisure time and 4WD vehicles were commonplace. Partners to do stuff with and learn from were available. Medical and wellness advice was abundant and that enabled climbing at an advanced age.

Had I started later, the mountains would be more crowded, less pristine and access more difficult. I lived at the perfect time in the perfect place.

Q: How many peaks (including repeats) do you climb in an average year?

A: Prior to retiring in 1996, I’d do about 60 peaks a year. After retiring I’d do about 100 a year until I finished the 12ers in 1995. I seldom repeated a peak while working on a big list.  Last year I did about 25 and now do more repeats.

Q: For the record-keeping fanatics out there: Do you have a special system to record your trips, summits, comments, etc.? Is it all from memory, or do you have a mountain log to reference?

A: I work from two lists – one sorted by elevation, the other sorted by quad. After climbing a peak, I note the year of completion on both lists. I also provide these data to Hille, who enters it into a database. She tracks summary statistics and does various bar charts. I also pencil the route on the quad map as a record of the route.

Q: Which mountains of the 13ers did you carry/use a rope on?

A: I recall carrying ropes for Lizard Head, Jagged, Peak 15, Thunder Pyramid, Dallas, Teakettle, Pilot Knob, US Grant, Vestal (Wham Ridge Route), Ice Mountain, Cathedral, Coxcomb, South Lookout, Milwaukee and Peak 10. There no doubt others that don’t come to mind. These are certainly some of the more difficult 13ers

Q: Can you compare the overall effort, technical difficulty, route finding, and satisfaction involved with climbing all of the 14ers vs. 13ers vs. 12ers?

A: I and others typically did the 14ers first and then worked down. 14ers provided the opportunity to learn and improve mountaineering skills and meet other climbers. That list is relatively small and guidebooks (I had Borneman and Lampert’s then) provided route descriptions. Even though the 14ers are perhaps 4^th class or less by their easiest route, many seemed real hard at the time. We carried a rope for several.

The 13er list is big and has some technically difficult peaks. Guidebooks (I had Garratt and Martin’s then) provide route descriptions for the highest 200 peaks. To get routes for the others, I studied Quad, Trails Illustrated and Forest maps and penciled in routes. That’s a good learning experience. In some cases I sought input from others and got to know some talented climbers by doing that.

The 12er list is bigger yet and has even more difficult peaks. Perhaps Turret Ridge is the most difficult peak above 12,000’. There are no guidebooks for 12ers but by then I was good at working from maps to get routes and readily got input from Ken when I needed it.

The 14ers are the most crowded and the 12ers are the least-climbed and most pristine. All the lists got me to beautiful areas that I would not have visited had it not been for the lists.

Q: In the course of your journey did you ever get the impression--from a summit register or otherwise--that you were on a summit that had only been climbed four or five or six times?

A: Turret Ridge, Twin Peaks and Pt. 12,438 boulder may have been climbed by fewer than six groups because they’re difficult, perhaps not attractive to sport climbers and not well-known to mountaineers. Some other 13ers and 12ers seem to have been rarely climbed also. They’re typically unnamed and remote, some without a cairn or peak register, others with very few signatures in a peak register. Typically long and tough (thus enjoyable) bushwacks are required to reach these peaks. That’s why these peaks and routes are among my favorites. Some of these are not far from metro-Denver and can be done as long day trips. We’re fortunate to have all those unnamed peaks in Colorado because they’re often pristine and may provide naming opportunities for several hundred years.

On the Mt. Jackson quad, a fine bushwacking route to pristine Points 12,764’, 12,973’ and 12,977’ starts at Carter Creek and goes by Josephine Lake. Pt. 12,730’ is seldom climbed and can be reached from the end of the West Lake Road near Edwards. Pristine Points 13,085’, 12,897’, 12,575’ can be reached by going past the overcrowded Missouri Lakes into country beyond that’s seldom visited.

In the Gore Range, try Points 12,922’, 12,845’ and 12,865’ from the Brush Creek Trailhead. In the San Juans, do Pt. 12,148’ from the West Fork Cimarron trailhead. In the Elks, trek over Avalanche Pass and do Points 12,494’ and 12,590’.

Q: In all of those peaks, which was the one, if any, that you had to make the most multiple attempts on and why.

A: I got Pyramid on the 3^rd attempt. On the two previous attempts we turned around because of bad weather. Weather seems to be less of an issue with 12ers and 13ers. Had it not been for route input from Ken and others, I’m sure that some 13ers and 12ers would have taken 3 or more attempts. Perhaps some did but I don’t recall that.

Q: What would you say is the predominant characteristic, talent, and/or skill that has helped you achieve your mountaineering goals?

A: Route finding is my predominant skill. I rely almost exclusively on Map and Compass and only occasionally use a GPS to verify that in fact I’m at the right trailhead or location. So the compass is my favorite piece of gear. I did not have this skill when I started climbing but got trained in BMS and got more competent by climbing.

Q: In the time that you have been hiking/mountaineering/climbing, what piece of equipment or gear has made the most significant improvement in each of the following areas: 1) Safety 2) Comfort 3) Enjoyment.

A: Fleece has largely replaced wool. Good hiking boots are now lighter, cheaper and easier to break in. These have improved comfort and enjoyment. The GPS has improved safety. These improvements come to mind but I don’t know that they are the most significant.

Q: As one gets more and more involved in this sport, more peak lists open up that are in the realm of possibility. Some involve world travel, others involve specialized technical skills, others super endurance, etc. What personal characteristics have motivated you to follow the path you have chosen?

A: I’ve focused on Colorado climbing because I love it here. I’ve climbed things elsewhere like Rainier, Gannet, Shasta, Popo and Ixta, Cayambe and del Diablo. Those were all fun but I just enjoy Colorado more. By climbing here I avoid travel and complex logistics so have more time for climbing. Early retirement provided me with time for big lists. Climbing the lists has greatly expanded my circle of partners and provided opportunities to meet and climb with some talented climbers. Whether or not these climbers still work, they all have discretionary time during the week for the right climbing opportunity. If I had to start over I wouldn’t change anything.

Q: Do you have any plans for future Colorado mountain lists? What list might you currently be working on?

A: As evidenced from Gerry’s website www.climb.mountains.com, the number and variety of lists now available is huge. In addition to the 13er and 12er lists, I’ve climbed three of Bob Martin’s smaller lists. One is Colorado’s Hardest Peaks. Another is Colorado Mountains on Which Many Hikers Would Want a Rope. I did a lot of these peaks with Jim Rickard. The third is Colorado’s Range Summits. These three lists are small, lots of fun and took me to nice mountain areas that I otherwise would not have visited. I may do more small lists but not another big one such as the 11ers. I haven’t done unranked or soft ranked 13ers and 12ers because those lists were already large without them. My major mountaineering accomplishments are behind – not ahead- of me. Going forward I’ll shift focus a bit and climb fewer mountains and travel more. Hille and I like to travel around the world with Gap Adventures from Canada and Intrepid Adventures from Australia. I’m trending toward less Winter climbing and more travel to warmer climates around the world and desert peaks and canyons in the Southwest.

Q: You have taken an interest in the geology of Colorado.  Do you look at the mountains differently since you have that background? From a geological point of view, can you name a couple of your favorite areas/ peaks?

A: I’ve really enjoyed reading some excellent geology books and I’ve seen a lot of mountains. Maybe I don’t look at mountains differently than before but I wonder more about how they got to be what they are. I haven’t done enough to relate textbook knowledge to what I’ve seen. Maybe I’ll revisit some areas with Professor John Lufkin. Here are a few favorite areas.

The Spanish Peaks are volcanic in origin and have the nicest set of dikes that I’ve seen anywhere. The climb up West Spanish Peak provides great views of the dikes. North and South Table Mountains have nice volcanic cliffs and the high point of North Table has nice lava flows. I understand the volcanic source of the Table Mountains to be at a now active basalt rock quarry near Ralston Buttes. The hogback is a favorite area too – as the Rockies “popped up” and the planes didn’t, that made some nice folds as we see at the geologic cut on I-70.

I’m fascinated by Twin Peaks. It’s just an 80’ or so high block that sticks up above a grassy grazing area – it’s not far from the Wheeler Geologic area. A local rancher told us that it’s volcanic ash. It’s soft and sort of crumbles apart as you climb it. That really annoys rock climbers. I haven’t figured out why something that soft hasn’t eroded away a long time ago and wonder when (millions of years?) it’ll be gone.

Q: Do you think that you may have sacrificed anything important during the pursuit of your climbing passion?

A: Prior to retirement, I set priorities in this order: 1. Family, 2. Job at Bell Labs, 3. Recreation (Hunt, ski, climb).  I made sure that other activities did not encroach onto my calendar so as to interfere with these priorities. Bell labs gave me weekends, holidays and paid vacation as time off. I avoided temptations and pressures to work on my time off. Because these were the important priorities, I didn’t sacrifice anything important by climbing.

Q: What is your secret to staying physically and mentally fit for a life of continuous peak-bagging?

A: Avoid stress, have fun and continually learn to stay mentally fit. Ski, hunt, and bag peaks to stay physically fit for peak-bagging

 
Q: What is the single most important piece of advice that you would give to someone just starting out wanting to climb the Colorado high peak lists?

A. As you travel through the mountains, go with good partners. Find experienced partners who you enjoy being with and who focus on getting peaks done rather than making excuses.

Q: Do you suppose that there are some summits not meant to be climbed? In other words, do you think that are there mountains or high points where the danger in reaching the summit outweighs (in your opinion) the reward?

A: Perhaps not. History indicates that people figure out ways to overcome huge challenges and are willing to take large risks in doing so.

I understand that the 26 kilometer high Martian volcano Olympus Mons is the tallest peak in the Solar System. I doubt that an earthling will climb that anytime soon. It’ll take even longer to climb the list of Solar System peaks, if and when someone compiles it

Q: If Colorado mountain ascents were awarded with merit badges or medals, which 10 would you be proudest to wear?

A:  I’ve awarded myself merit badges for climbing the hard peaks referred to earlier in this interview and don’t want to repeat them. I prefer peaks that I don’t have to haul ropes for or technical climbs that I haven’t done yet.

Q: If you were confined or restricted to only ONE Colorado USGS quadrangle for the rest of your life, which one would it be?

A: South Table Mountain. Because it’s a mile from home, maybe I can still drive there at age 80, hobble around a bit and enjoy some vistas and wildlife. Morrison Quad because South Table is on it.

Q: Within the sport of climbing 14ers there are certain written or unwritten ethical “rules”. For instance, the drop between the saddle, the minimum elevation gain, etc. Do you have your own set of rules/ethics?

A: I discuss and observe rules/ethics with my climbing friends but don’t have my own set.

Q: (Gerry Roach) I understand that you have a PhD in applied math. Where did you get it, and what professional job did you maintain after getting it? Did the degree help you climb mountains?

A: I have a PhD in Applied Math from Brown University and prior engineering degrees from Michigan State. The degrees provided no direct help to climb mountains. Indirectly they helped by enabling a faculty position teaching Aerospace Engineering at the University of Minnesota where I met and married Hille, my ski and  climbing partner. They later enabled a job with Bell labs that provided enough time off for climbing and adequate compensation so that I could save, invest and retire early.

Q: I understand you are on the Board of Access Colorado. Please tell us a little about that.

A: Access Colorado was formed in 2006 as a non-profit corporation. Its mission is to promote hiking and mountaineering access to Colorado’s mountains. It is an Affiliate of the Access Fund. Dan Bereck is President. Dave Cooper, Kevin Craig, Ginni Greer and I are on the Board.

Q: I consider you to be very knowledgeable in many areas. Do you read a lot of books?

A: I’ve subscribed to Scientific American, National Geographic and the Wall Street Journal for the last 35 years. Since retirement, I have time to read a lot of books in the natural sciences, history and business. Fortunately, there are some very intelligent people in all these fields that have written great books. I enjoy learning from them.

Q: When stuck in the tent for an infamous monsoon torrent what authors/books do you read to pass the time between naps?

A: None. I’ll climb in some pretty nasty weather but if it’s too bad to climb I’ll pack out, go home and read there. When a night in the tent is too long to sleep through I’ll meditate.

Q: In the nearly 20 years that you’ve been leading 14ers for the Griffith Center For Children Peak Challenge climb, have there been any close calls with beginners?

A: Not in our group that I’m aware of. The group started at AT&T, was from Lucent for a few years and is now from Avaya as a result of corporate restructurings. The group has done Peak Challenge climbs every year since Griffith Center For Children started Peak Challenge about 18 years ago. The group typically has 20+ climbers who pledge to raise money for Griffith and is routinely one of the highest fund-raising groups for Peak Challenge. Harder peaks with difficult route-finding and technical difficulties are not selected. A core group of repeat climbers has evolved that welcomes, encourages and supports first time climbers. The model is to have 4+ leaders – one in front, one at the rear and a few that roam between. Most people reach the summit – those that don’t may feel good about their accomplishment because they gave their best effort.

A highlight of my climbing career was to hike with Tieu Kohler, a blind lady, to the summit of Mt. Elbert a few years ago on a Peak Challenge climb. And I’m delighted that she’s done several more Peak Challenge climbs since then.

The end.

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